More on the Spirit...a Response
Brant posted a comment on my last post and this response got a little too long for the comments section...
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Hansen…I think it’s time for you to seriously consider whether you are a disciple of Jesus or not. I mean, geez, your middle name could be “modernity”. Brant “Modernity” Hansen. Why don’t you perform some scientific experiment on whether or not healing “works” or not? How rationalistic is that? Like century after century of human being in pretty much every people group around the world that believes in the tangible reality of the spirit world is not as “enlightened” as you? C’mon!
Now everyone else can pick their mouths off the floor, and Brant can stop laughing.
Brant, your honesty and willingness to keep asking hard questions is one of the reasons I value our friendship so much...well, that and the fact that I can never "out sarcastic" you.
To echo Steven, I think it is perfectly okay to say "show me", both of God and of fellow disciples. The "demonstrative" portion of the kingdom cannot be minimized or divorced from the “proclamation” portion. Certainly, Jesus did not segregate healing or miracles and preaching as demonstrating / proclaiming the kingdom, or even as two sides of the same coin. It was all connected as part of Jesus’ mission, and hence ours, to be a “sign, foretaste, and instrument” of the reign of God.
That being said, it might be helpful to flesh out these two sentences from my post a little:
“The “unseen” nature of God’s kingdom is not just that we do not fully see how he is setting the world right or will set the world right one day. It is that he operates both at a level we can see – within the relationships and earthly contexts we find ourselves in – and in the “heavenly” realm of spirit and spiritual power.”
I think the real issue at hand, more than whether or not you “embrace the power gifts” or not, is fully embracing the mystery of God’s presence around us and in us, or as Jesus said, “The kingdom of God is upon you.” The fact is, I’ve seen even the most conservative of Baptists prophesy or speak of discovering God’s will in a way that is only possible by embracing this reality. Conversely, much of the false teaching, lack of discernment, and even fraud among charismatic / pentecostal circles demonstrates an incredible lack of faith in the reality and availability of God’s kingdom. There is no need to “drum up” the Spirit of God, like some sort of churchified séance. Phenomenological responses – crying, shaking, speaking in tongues – are not the only evidence of God’s presence and power.
However, phenomenological responses should also not surprise someone who acknowledges God’s kingdom. This is the way I’ve thought of it in the past – God’s presence affects people’s bodies differently. Although God is always present with us, on occasion either we are just more aware of his presence or he is in some way “more present”. That’s difficult for the rationalistic portion of our brains to grasp, but there was something unique about what Moses experienced on the mountain, the disciples in the upper room, or the early pentecostals on Azuza Street. During those times, people’s bodies interact and react to God’s power. Some people laugh, some cry, some shake, some get healed, some are grieved and repent at the thought of God’s might. Sometimes, when I’m aware of God’s special presence, my insides rumble and I get this occasional jolt like my body is getting a little electric charge. It’s a little weird, and I can squelch it if I want, but I’ve learned to use it to help identify what God is doing. If I’m praying for someone and it starts to happen, I continue listening and praying. It’s just my body that is affected (and my pride perhaps for occasionally looking foolish); what God is accomplishing is more important. Other times, I have been given a tongue in a group of people, occasionally in a large meeting where that sort of thing didn’t happen very much. It’s wild…I somehow know when it is going to happen and often have a sense of the interpretation. It can be very uncomfortable and awkward – freaky perhaps – but God seems to weave it all together for his purposes.
At least for me, these things do not happen every day. I would love to see people get healed or delivered while we cruise around on the streets, but frankly, we don’t live in a culture that is very open to that right now. There is this very interesting passage in Mark 6 that reveals a little of where we are:
“Jesus left there and went to his hometown, accompanied by his disciples. When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed.
"Where did this man get these things?" they asked. "What's this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles! Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor." He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. And he was amazed at their lack of faith.” – Mark 6:1-6
We all know what our culture thinks of when they hear “Christian”. Imagine a group of Jesus-followers going around proclaiming that God was going to heal the sick, cast out demons, and raise the dead. Our culture would say: “Aren’t these the same Christians whose leaders bilk the weak for their money, are sexually immoral, support war and the Republican agenda, and suppress women and minorities?” And they took offense at us.
If Jesus – Jesus – could only heal a few sick people in that climate, I don’t anticipate us seeing very many radical, public displays of God’s power in our culture. I just took a quick look at the gospels, and without exception (even in John) after Jesus arrived in Jerusalem the week of Passover before his death there is not a single story of him performing a healing or miracle. His first act in Jerusalem, interestingly enough, was to cleanse the temple. Then he proceeds to preach and prophecy both to his followers and to the Jews about the coming judgment, his death, and resurrection. According to the gospels, almost the entire ministry of Jesus and his disciples where they demonstrated the arrival of God’s kingdom through healing, miracles, deliverance, and raising the dead was accomplished among the poor and forgotten throughout the Jewish countryside. I do not think that is a trivial observation.
In our culture, I see the role of the church (particularly as we’ve come to define it as small, loosely-organized bands of kingdom friends) as proclaimers of a gospel that confronts the self-idolatry that masks itself as skepticism. Obviously, I’m not talking about your skepticism which is rooted more in the experiences you’ve had and some very genuine questions. I’m talking about our culture’s skepticism that “surely nothing good can come out of Nazareth,” or in other words, nothing good can come out of North American evangelical Christianity. We must cope with this skepticism as long as we live and minister in this “hometown” of ours.
So getting back to the question at hand, where does the supernatural power of God fit into this equation? I believe we must create communities, environments, and families where the supernatural does not scare or surprise us, where we can act in discernment, love, and trust, and we do not allow our culture’s skepticism of God or us as followers of Jesus to discourage or deter us. We must simply intend to embrace everything God is offering us as his children, and to do it together. Fellowship is wonderful, but I often need to hear a prophetic word to slice through the noise and rediscover God’s intent for me right now. The prophetic is wonderful, but it often does not make any sense unless it comes out of relationship that is fostered through spending real time together, like sitting around the campfire last weekend sharing our stories as friends.
Most of us, myself included, need regular periods of time where we can just simply be quiet with others in front of God. This, I have found, is simply the best way to become comfortable with this “unseen” world of the kingdom. For example, learning to be aware of what is happening to your body when the Holy Spirit is especially present is in fact something you can learn, just the same as it is possible (and necessary) to grow in spiritual discernment. Having others around that you love and trust to help interpret things is not only critical to the growth process, it is really the only way to grow in a healthy way. Amber and I crave this type of interaction right now, not because we crave some kind of spiritual experience, we just want to keep growing as disciples of Jesus in every area!
I could say more, but this comment is long enough already. In the end, this is really an invitation to everyone in our local community to keep asking questions, keep stretching, keep growing, and keep practicing. We all have so much to learn, about each other, about God’s kingdom, and about his mission and how we fit in that mission. Let’s continue the conversation and find ways to intentionally “experiment” together as a means of discovering more of God’s kingdom among us.
---------------------------
Hansen…I think it’s time for you to seriously consider whether you are a disciple of Jesus or not. I mean, geez, your middle name could be “modernity”. Brant “Modernity” Hansen. Why don’t you perform some scientific experiment on whether or not healing “works” or not? How rationalistic is that? Like century after century of human being in pretty much every people group around the world that believes in the tangible reality of the spirit world is not as “enlightened” as you? C’mon!
Now everyone else can pick their mouths off the floor, and Brant can stop laughing.
Brant, your honesty and willingness to keep asking hard questions is one of the reasons I value our friendship so much...well, that and the fact that I can never "out sarcastic" you.
To echo Steven, I think it is perfectly okay to say "show me", both of God and of fellow disciples. The "demonstrative" portion of the kingdom cannot be minimized or divorced from the “proclamation” portion. Certainly, Jesus did not segregate healing or miracles and preaching as demonstrating / proclaiming the kingdom, or even as two sides of the same coin. It was all connected as part of Jesus’ mission, and hence ours, to be a “sign, foretaste, and instrument” of the reign of God.
That being said, it might be helpful to flesh out these two sentences from my post a little:
“The “unseen” nature of God’s kingdom is not just that we do not fully see how he is setting the world right or will set the world right one day. It is that he operates both at a level we can see – within the relationships and earthly contexts we find ourselves in – and in the “heavenly” realm of spirit and spiritual power.”
I think the real issue at hand, more than whether or not you “embrace the power gifts” or not, is fully embracing the mystery of God’s presence around us and in us, or as Jesus said, “The kingdom of God is upon you.” The fact is, I’ve seen even the most conservative of Baptists prophesy or speak of discovering God’s will in a way that is only possible by embracing this reality. Conversely, much of the false teaching, lack of discernment, and even fraud among charismatic / pentecostal circles demonstrates an incredible lack of faith in the reality and availability of God’s kingdom. There is no need to “drum up” the Spirit of God, like some sort of churchified séance. Phenomenological responses – crying, shaking, speaking in tongues – are not the only evidence of God’s presence and power.
However, phenomenological responses should also not surprise someone who acknowledges God’s kingdom. This is the way I’ve thought of it in the past – God’s presence affects people’s bodies differently. Although God is always present with us, on occasion either we are just more aware of his presence or he is in some way “more present”. That’s difficult for the rationalistic portion of our brains to grasp, but there was something unique about what Moses experienced on the mountain, the disciples in the upper room, or the early pentecostals on Azuza Street. During those times, people’s bodies interact and react to God’s power. Some people laugh, some cry, some shake, some get healed, some are grieved and repent at the thought of God’s might. Sometimes, when I’m aware of God’s special presence, my insides rumble and I get this occasional jolt like my body is getting a little electric charge. It’s a little weird, and I can squelch it if I want, but I’ve learned to use it to help identify what God is doing. If I’m praying for someone and it starts to happen, I continue listening and praying. It’s just my body that is affected (and my pride perhaps for occasionally looking foolish); what God is accomplishing is more important. Other times, I have been given a tongue in a group of people, occasionally in a large meeting where that sort of thing didn’t happen very much. It’s wild…I somehow know when it is going to happen and often have a sense of the interpretation. It can be very uncomfortable and awkward – freaky perhaps – but God seems to weave it all together for his purposes.
At least for me, these things do not happen every day. I would love to see people get healed or delivered while we cruise around on the streets, but frankly, we don’t live in a culture that is very open to that right now. There is this very interesting passage in Mark 6 that reveals a little of where we are:
“Jesus left there and went to his hometown, accompanied by his disciples. When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed.
"Where did this man get these things?" they asked. "What's this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles! Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor." He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. And he was amazed at their lack of faith.” – Mark 6:1-6
We all know what our culture thinks of when they hear “Christian”. Imagine a group of Jesus-followers going around proclaiming that God was going to heal the sick, cast out demons, and raise the dead. Our culture would say: “Aren’t these the same Christians whose leaders bilk the weak for their money, are sexually immoral, support war and the Republican agenda, and suppress women and minorities?” And they took offense at us.
If Jesus – Jesus – could only heal a few sick people in that climate, I don’t anticipate us seeing very many radical, public displays of God’s power in our culture. I just took a quick look at the gospels, and without exception (even in John) after Jesus arrived in Jerusalem the week of Passover before his death there is not a single story of him performing a healing or miracle. His first act in Jerusalem, interestingly enough, was to cleanse the temple. Then he proceeds to preach and prophecy both to his followers and to the Jews about the coming judgment, his death, and resurrection. According to the gospels, almost the entire ministry of Jesus and his disciples where they demonstrated the arrival of God’s kingdom through healing, miracles, deliverance, and raising the dead was accomplished among the poor and forgotten throughout the Jewish countryside. I do not think that is a trivial observation.
In our culture, I see the role of the church (particularly as we’ve come to define it as small, loosely-organized bands of kingdom friends) as proclaimers of a gospel that confronts the self-idolatry that masks itself as skepticism. Obviously, I’m not talking about your skepticism which is rooted more in the experiences you’ve had and some very genuine questions. I’m talking about our culture’s skepticism that “surely nothing good can come out of Nazareth,” or in other words, nothing good can come out of North American evangelical Christianity. We must cope with this skepticism as long as we live and minister in this “hometown” of ours.
So getting back to the question at hand, where does the supernatural power of God fit into this equation? I believe we must create communities, environments, and families where the supernatural does not scare or surprise us, where we can act in discernment, love, and trust, and we do not allow our culture’s skepticism of God or us as followers of Jesus to discourage or deter us. We must simply intend to embrace everything God is offering us as his children, and to do it together. Fellowship is wonderful, but I often need to hear a prophetic word to slice through the noise and rediscover God’s intent for me right now. The prophetic is wonderful, but it often does not make any sense unless it comes out of relationship that is fostered through spending real time together, like sitting around the campfire last weekend sharing our stories as friends.
Most of us, myself included, need regular periods of time where we can just simply be quiet with others in front of God. This, I have found, is simply the best way to become comfortable with this “unseen” world of the kingdom. For example, learning to be aware of what is happening to your body when the Holy Spirit is especially present is in fact something you can learn, just the same as it is possible (and necessary) to grow in spiritual discernment. Having others around that you love and trust to help interpret things is not only critical to the growth process, it is really the only way to grow in a healthy way. Amber and I crave this type of interaction right now, not because we crave some kind of spiritual experience, we just want to keep growing as disciples of Jesus in every area!
I could say more, but this comment is long enough already. In the end, this is really an invitation to everyone in our local community to keep asking questions, keep stretching, keep growing, and keep practicing. We all have so much to learn, about each other, about God’s kingdom, and about his mission and how we fit in that mission. Let’s continue the conversation and find ways to intentionally “experiment” together as a means of discovering more of God’s kingdom among us.
posted by Mike Bishop at 9:47 AM
2 Comments:
no truer words have been spoken:
'Fellowship is wonderful, but I often need to hear a prophetic word to slice through the noise and rediscover God’s intent for me right now.'
also, very great insight: 'If Jesus – Jesus – could only heal a few sick people in that climate, I don’t anticipate us seeing very many radical, public displays of God’s power in our culture.' i utterly agree, yet there are those in our culture that are more open to it or just desperate enough to want it...i wonder how often (because we might not take the time to be quiet in community - we may miss that God has 'left the building/meeting' so-to-speak and we have lost track of His guidance and need to refresh ourselves in His Spirit to open our eyes with discernment to 'see what the Father is doing and do that'...but instead we have built our 'proven' methodologies and perhaps been hardened by some institutionalization of our structures that we still want God to just bless our structures...in stead of expecting His Presence to interact and 'do' stuff all the time all around us...which could make us God's PTPer's: take it to the streets baby! (read the last phrase with your best Dick Vitale impression)
brant, for an example of a naturally supernatural breaking forth of the Kingdom, check my entry on my blog from Friday, March 30th...throughout my vocation and doing what i did the last few years, i shared several moments where i felt/saw the Presence/Power of God in a non-hyped, non-pressured way that was naturally supernatural...
thanks again guys for provoking me to think yet again
When I've spent time wrestling with God over this city of Boulder, CO that my wife and I have been brought to, I imagine a proclaiming of the Kingdom and calling against 'Babylon' that perpetuates injustice, hautiness, greed, godlessness etc... in the 'high and lifted up' places of the town. I believe many similarly-hearted laborers who have come before us have mistakenly assumed that those would be the very same places where outward demonstrations of power (healings or otherwise) would take place. But I think this overlooks exactly what you touched on here. When I'm stirred toward cooperating with God in those ways of demonstrating the spirit's power, I am gripped inwardly by the hushed needs of those areas of our city that those "high-and-lifted" ones in Babylon want to ignore like the great swaths of trailer parks we have and the small immigrant ghettoes we have that often languish materially and socially struggle alone and are easily ignored by the rest of the city who secretly wish they would all just disappear and their eye-sore homes with them.
Boulder is a city of these distilled contrasts. You can clearly see and hear the cacophony of those who essentially cry out "I have no need of God" or "I have God figured out - come sign up for my spirituality workshop." Which stands starkly against those in the unsightly, silently despised places who are crying out to God every day for help, forced to own their humility, looking at the vast wealth and "opportunity" around them while bleeding under the weight of injustice. And the root injustice I am talking about does not refer to a mere material disbalance of wealth and resources, but an inequality of perception of intrinsic human value. It is those spurned by the world and inwardly spat upon that God wants to touch with His hands.
-Chris
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