Calvary Chapel
Since a lot of my early Christian roots (from about 12-18 years old) were formed in Calvary Chapel, I found this post by Andrew Jones fairly interesting. It doesn't surprise me that Chuck Smith would react negatively to the "emerging church", however, it does surprise me how uninformed and reactive the letter sounds. However, if you read in the comments under Andrew's post, Chuck Smith Jr. indicates that the letter was actually written by his Uncle, not Chuck Sr. Regardless, the letter is something Calvary pastors will take into much consideration and form pretty deep opinions about, just because it comes from "Chuck Smith". Believe me.
As I've said before, I'm not great defender of all things "emerging church". Truthfully, I don't believe you could ever hope to defend the emerging church because it will never be something cohesive enough to compare to anything else. So it's sad to see whole movements take such strong stands against something they don't understand and have no relationship with.
On another note, Chuck Jr's comment made me aware again of how much I like that guy. I met Chuck in 2002 in St. Louis at a conference and was extremely impressed by his humility and deep passion for Jesus. He's a seeker like the rest of us...he just happens to have a pretty famous Dad. It's also interesting to note that his church is formally disassociating from Calvary "for the very amicable reason that I (we) seek a breadth of relationships that CC is not willing to accommodate." That is precisely the reason we have withdrawn from our Vineyard association. Not because we don't love our roots and history and even the people within the movement, but because we're coming into a time where limiting our relationships to one "tribe" just doesn't make sense anymore.
As I've said before, I'm not great defender of all things "emerging church". Truthfully, I don't believe you could ever hope to defend the emerging church because it will never be something cohesive enough to compare to anything else. So it's sad to see whole movements take such strong stands against something they don't understand and have no relationship with.
On another note, Chuck Jr's comment made me aware again of how much I like that guy. I met Chuck in 2002 in St. Louis at a conference and was extremely impressed by his humility and deep passion for Jesus. He's a seeker like the rest of us...he just happens to have a pretty famous Dad. It's also interesting to note that his church is formally disassociating from Calvary "for the very amicable reason that I (we) seek a breadth of relationships that CC is not willing to accommodate." That is precisely the reason we have withdrawn from our Vineyard association. Not because we don't love our roots and history and even the people within the movement, but because we're coming into a time where limiting our relationships to one "tribe" just doesn't make sense anymore.
posted by Mike Bishop at 8:30 AM
11 Comments:
I find the quote from Chuck, Jr. very encouraging.
Yeah, me too. Good stuff.
I enjoy your thoughts and have some questions for you. Why would being associated with the Vineyard (or any "kin") not allow you to be a part of any other "clan?" Are the (non)-denominational lines more pronounced than I think they are? What freedoms do you now have that you did not have as part of the Vineyard "band?"
Good question. The short, practical answer has to do with time. Since we do not employ any staff and leadership comes from within the community from people like myself who hold full time jobs, it made it very difficult to maintain relationships with the larger Vineyard body. All the pastor's meetings are during the week (the middle of the week usually). Much of the communication in our region is geared toward brick-and-mortar churches with paid staff and organizational structures that look nothing like ours. Add to that the normal pressures of life (my wife and I had three children in four years) and you have a formula for tension.
That being said, I'm not suggesting that the Vineyard hasn't been generally open to freedom of relationship outside it's borders. I think if I were an employed minister the situation might be different. But, this is part of the new reality of church and one that movements like Calvary Chapel will not be quick to adapt to. How do you help the leadership of a network of simple churches (who all have jobs or own businesses) stay connected relationally to the larger network? Tough as it is now.
The exciting thing is that I am a now part of a group of people who is doing this across denominational and geographic boundaries. Most of these guys and girls (10 couples total) met each other through blogging and we all lead simple church networks. We have committed to gathering two to three times a year to solidify our bond together and provide encouragement etc. Naturally, these meetings have to happen on long weekends because we all have jobs. Beyond the physical meetings, of course we all read each other's blogs and have other means of online communication. That is now our "wider-area network".
Sorry for the long comment. Good questions.
After spending 16 years in Calvary Chapel (while you were growing up there) I was somewhat puzzled as to why your mother and I seemed to feel more and more uneasy there and disatisfied with whatever. Most of those years as you know were spent on the Board. I saw us become more and more denominational and fundamental in our practices, acceptances and beliefs. In fact, if it didn't have the CC stamp of approval on it, or better yet, didn't come out of Costa Mesa then it was unacceptable. As you know, God took care of our problem by just moving us out of there to a church where we could once again minister. Yes, its a non-denominational church with some traditional practices but one also open for new things and ready to be moved by the Spirit.
I forgot one thing that I should have included in my post. Once we were released from CC and moved, both your Mother and I felt this tremendous release of something akin to bondage. In orther words, we felt free and that something was lifted off of us. We discovered that there were wonderful Christians and friends in our new church. That another church had good teaching, even better teaching, than CC. It was an interesting process to go through which tells me that no one church, teacher or denomination has the answer. We're all seeking and striving!
Hello,
I was reading your posts and found them very interesting. I think you can feel like you are in bondage in any church these days due to the "rushing to and fro" of this century.
I know that I feel that way right now.
I do attend a Calvary Chapel though and I like the teaching. I have little time to bond with people.
I want to ask you if you guys would pray for my children: Matt and Lindsay. They need to be saved. I am not ashamed to ask anyone to pray for them. God Bless you!!joanie
Thanks for the helpful response Mike. I am about to plant a Vineyard church in California and I too have questions about being in the Vineyard. We are going to plant a cell-church, which is not a model of church that any of my fellow pastors do. In fact, most of them have little idea of what a cell-church is. Like you, I (and the others coming with) will all have a full or part-time job(s) for some time; although over time, if we see a need, I will go full-time. Furthermore, I don’t see a huge need to be the first paid employee of our church. When I asked when our area pastoral meeting were I was told once a month on Tuesdays. As you found out, this will be difficult as a full-time employee.
Another issue comes in the area of coaching. What happens when those coaching me have a different idea of “success” than I do? For example, my idea of “success” is (off the cuff): living a transparent Christ-oriented life with others, which results in disciple making disciples who want to plant reproducing churches all over the world to reach the lost; however, their idea of success might be: having more than 100 attendees each Sunday, being able to have the church pay me (the pastor) full-time, and a couple of part-time program directors.
I can only hope to have the humility to communicate my convictions in a Christ-like way; yet hold fast and “do the stuff” as he modelled for us.
Thanks for the helpful response Mike. I am about to plant a Vineyard church in California and I too have questions about being in the Vineyard. We are going to plant a cell-church, which is not a model of church that any of my fellow pastors do. In fact, most of them have little idea of what a cell-church is. Like you, I (and the others coming with) will all have a full or part-time job(s) for some time; although over time, if we see a need, I will go full-time. Furthermore, I don’t see a huge need to be the first paid employee of our church. When I asked when our area pastoral meeting were I was told once a month on Tuesdays. As you found out, this will be difficult as a full-time employee.
Another issue comes in the area of coaching. What happens when those coaching me have a different idea of “success” than I do? For example, my idea of “success” is (off the cuff): living a transparent Christ-oriented life with others, which results in disciple making disciples who want to plant reproducing churches all over the world to reach the lost; however, their idea of success might be: having more than 100 attendees each Sunday, being able to have the church pay me (the pastor) full-time, and a couple of part-time program directors.
I can only hope to have the humility to communicate my convictions in a Christ-like way; yet hold fast and “do the stuff” as he modelled for us.
let's face it,,,,,the JESUS movement gave us calvary chapel,,,,,which GOD gave to us john wimber to lead up the vineyard for HIS glory. remembering GOD is a "living GOD " does not surprize me to see or say prophetically,,,HE is still moving and NEW things are being birthed everyday. those who are "seers" will see GOD's will and HIS shifts. new and fresh movements are surely on the horizon as more pouring out of GOD continues. HE loves us and will continue to grow more and more. keep praying GOD keeps moving and stretching brothers and sisters into new movements but remember it's still one GOD,one SPIRIT who truly loves us......GOD bless
mike rosa
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